Ple^sure Principles
Join us on Ple^sure Principles, the podcast where desire meets discovery. The host, delves into the world of sensual pleasure, intimacy, and relationships, exploring the complexities and nuances of human connection.
What we focus on?
- Candid conversations with experts, thought leaders, and everyday people
- Insights on sexual health, wellness, and self-care
- Discussions on consent, communication, and boundary-setting
- Personal stories of pleasure, passion, and transformation
Want to be a guest on Ple^sure Principles? Send Avik Chakraborty a message on PodMatch, here: https://www.podmatch.com/hostdetailpreview/17275468104779647fc23a8b9
Ple^sure Principles
Transforming Sexual Communication and Understanding Through Breaking Taboos and Embracing Curiosity - Tess and Kels
What if the way we talk about sex has been all wrong? Join us in a groundbreaking conversation with Tess and Kels, the brilliant minds behind SQUIRM, as we dismantle the stereotypes and stigmas surrounding sexual communication. We challenge the influence of media portrayals and the striking lack of authoritative guidance, leaving many to navigate sex education through the lens of internet porn and peer interactions. Our discussion sheds light on how religious and cultural backgrounds shape our understanding and communication about sex, emphasizing the importance of experimentation and breaking free from societal norms to transform power dynamics within relationships.
Continuing our exploration, we tackle the often-awkward subject of sex education with younger generations, advocating for open dialogues around porn literacy. We focus on creating safe spaces where feedback during intimacy is seen as an enhancement, not a mood killer. The conversation pushes back against the notion that talking about sex ruins it, promoting a culture of openness and curiosity. We also broaden our perspective on pornography's societal role—examining its diverse forms and cultural roots, like the Kama Sutra—to foster more informed and less stigmatized conversations about sexuality. This is a call to break taboos, embrace curiosity, and enrich our understanding of intimacy and pleasure.
Marky.ai an AI marketing platform that automates campaigns and optimizes strategies for better ROI.
Disclaimer: This post contains affiliate links. If you make a purchase, I may receive a commission at no extra cost to you.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Want to be a guest on Healthy Mind, Healthy Life? DM on PM - Send me a message on podmatch:
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Stay Tuned And Follow Us!
- YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@healthymind-healthylife
- Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/podhealth.club/
- Threads - https://www.threads.net/@podhealth.club
- Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/podcast.healthymind
- LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/newandnew/ ...
Hey everyone, welcome to Pleasure Punchables, the podcast where we take an unapologetic deep dive into the messy, magical and often misunderstood world of pleasure, sexuality and the relationships. Sexuality and the relationships. I'm your host, avik, and today we are shaking up the conversation around sex in a way that will leave you intricate, informed and maybe even like little squirmy, in the best way possible. Yes, so joining me today are the two absolute powerhouse in the world of sexual communication and the education, tess and Kels. So welcome to the show.
Speaker 2:Thank you, you're welcome. Yeah, I love the messy and magical combination. That's great. So right, yeah.
Speaker 1:Lovely, lovely. So, dear listeners, before we delve deep into this topic today, I'll quickly love to introduce you to Tess and Kels. So, dear listeners, tess and Kels, both are the co-founders of SQUIRM, s-q-u-i-r-m. To be more specific, these they too have, I mean, have made it their mission to dismantle the stigma surrounding sex and help people navigate the tricky, vulnerable conversations with the humor and compassion and just the right amount of awkwardness of awkwardness. Their platform, squam, does this through the workshops, events and their highly acclaimed podcast, porn Nerds, a show which currently ranking in the top 10% of the podcasts and offering a fresh, nuanced take on porn's intersection with our sex lives, on porn's intersection with our sex lives. So, tess and Kels, welcome to Pleasure Principles. I really have a feeling that this is going to be one of our most eye-opening episodes here, so let's dive in.
Speaker 2:Let's do it. I can't wait. Lovely, lovely so.
Speaker 1:I mean to both of you like. Why do you think like talking about sex, and especially the porn, is such a taboo, even in the world where so much of our media is saturated with the sexual content, adult content.
Speaker 3:What's holding us back? Good question, I mean. I think you make a very important point, which is it's not like we're not encountering sex very often, right, we see sex everywhere Movies, music videos, advertising, it's news, like it's everywhere but it's offered to us in such a sort of surface, level and narrow offering. And so I think what's holding us back? I think there's a lot of reasons why we're only still engaging, usually engaging with sex in this sort of surface, level way, level way. I think a lot of it has to do with, at least in the United States, this sort of background of religion and purity culture that, like really still informs so much of how we live our lives.
Speaker 3:Even if fewer and fewer people and younger generations are subscribing to these really rigid ideas around religion, I think it still permeates our culture in a way that's palpable and very, very strong. So I think that's one reason. I think another reason is people don't have a ton of practice. So maybe you're coming to this conversation from a place of an open mind and and not the sort of your encounters with sex have been rom-coms or porn or music videos or like ads selling Carl's Jr hamburgers. You know, like it's, it's, I think there's not a lot of practice, and so even if people really do want to go deeper and be more honest, and messy and awkward and all of it, it's like what do I even say, though? How do I get there? It's kind of the path of least resistance is just to continue the more sort of surface level engagement with it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah. I think the only thing I'll add is like, when we're younger and growing up and porn and sex is around us, it's kind of like no authority figures really want to touch it. Like parents are like not my problem, like can't, nope, and then like schools are like we can't. So we're like it's kind of this luck of the draw and it ends up often being, I think, this really peer-to-peer thing and like with the surge, like the big surge of internet porn, I feel like that's where a lot of us have turned to to learn about sex and which is like a big reason why we decided to do this podcast about porn, because it's like a formative educator for so many of us.
Speaker 2:However, it's like simultaneously the butt of the joke to like watch porn. It's kind of regarded as this dirty thing in a lot of circles and I think it's just like because of the stigma that's surrounding it, for all the reasons Tess just mentioned, of like our own kind of squeamishness around our sexuality. Like a lot of the peer-to-peer conversations are pretty limited, um, and so I think it's just kind of like this it's like this uncle that we all have that we're all like really close to that he tells so much about. I was like you're like no one's talking about it uncle is maybe the wrong term but like it's like this, like this figure in so many of our lives that like everyone's a little embarrassed about you know lovely, lovely, thanks for sharing this.
Speaker 1:And also one more thing when we're talking about taboo, um, do you think that taboo plays into the power of dynamics with the relationships, or, um, or even like how we approach, uh, the sexual communication with ourselves?
Speaker 3:yeah, so does taboo sort of play into how we engage with, with sex and and sexual dynamics? I think so. I mean, I think part of sex is experimentation and play and breaking up the norm of your you know work day and your sort of productive life. It's like a way to experience different feelings and part of what's appealing about that like I think the taboo piece is that you do get to like break up the monotony of the day or the rest of the week of of watching porn and feeling like you're doing something wrong, like that's a huge appeal and I think that's there's nothing wrong with wanting to kind of push back against the, the dominant stories of like how we are quote unquote supposed to be, you know, as adults, as as productive and upright citizen adults yeah, yeah yeah so, uh, I'm.
Speaker 1:I'll just say, like, that's such a great point about internalized shame, uh, which because, um, it's true that even the most confident among us, or maybe whosoever is listening right now can feel a little tongue-tied when it comes to saying that what we really want. So let's build on that. So, yeah, and I'll definitely come about your podcast of porn nerds, which takes such a refreshing approach to porn as a cultural phenomenon. That's, I mean, what inspired you to make uh, porn the focal point of these conversations and also, at the same time, if we can, if we can, share, like, how has the response been from people who love it so?
Speaker 2:yeah, yeah, I think, like when we set out with squirm, the mission has really been sexual communication, like getting people to feel more comfortable about expressing boundaries and desires and interests and all that.
Speaker 2:And you know, as like the mission evolved and we were kind of at this project market where we were connected with a bunch of producers, it just became increasingly, increasingly clear that it's like very hard to have a conversation about sex without having conversation about porn, because it is such a prolific part of our own education and Tess has like a big formal academic background in it that she can touch on herself. I won't do it justice, but I think, yes, it's like it. It feels completely inextricable from like so many people's sexual identities and I think we really looked at the show as like a conversation with the listener, like so much of it is built on people's anecdotal experiences with how it's formed them and their sexualities and their relationships, and so it's kind of just this. I don't know, it was like a very cool little time capsule of hearing, like having this conversation with everybody around, how this influences us.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I think we wanted to bring porn to the conversation of squirm or the world of squirm, in a way that we hadn't really seen it being talked about before. Like there are certainly podcasts about porn focused on what's happening in the industry or focused on you know more, like from a sex therapist lens of quote-unquote, like addiction or or stress around porn. There's there's a porn review podcast. That's really fun, like that's definitely out in the open, but we wanted to take it to a real personal place. Um, knowing that we have this squirm community of people who are vulnerable about their sex lives and practicing, talking openly about it. We're like, okay, let's involve this amazing community of people who have so much to say about their own experiences, but let's also bring in that insider industry knowledge. Like we'll bring in people who work in the industry performers, directors. We bring in a journalist for the Financial Times who writes about the business of porn and we do talk to a sex therapist. So we kind of try to bring in all these different angles. So it's not like this is what we think you should think about porn or this is not what we're saying you should decide about porn. It's like here are so many different ways we can talk about this massive topic and we're going to do it from a real close personal lens. And we're also going to do it from this 300 foot view. Look at this crazy huge industry. Just look at the numbers like it's staggering. And we're also going to do it from this 300 foot view. Look at this crazy huge industry, just look at the numbers like it's staggering.
Speaker 3:And we're going to bring in a bunch of humor because, like porn is also, there's so much comedy in porn. Like we have this whole section on porn parodies, you know, like like pornographic videos that are based on our favorite video games or cartoons. Like just like there's so much levity and humor in the industry as well. And I think that gets overshadowed by a lot of the fears around what it's doing to our brains and our relationships. So it was, like she said, it was this really fun sort of time capsule, like what people are thinking right now, both inside and outside the industry, how we feel about it as just two people who are sexual and um, and just trying to like, yeah, bring people in in like a nuanced way and let people decide for themselves how they, how they feel about it in the end lovely, I really love the um.
Speaker 1:I mean that your work thrives on the nuances, like it's not about like, taking sides, uh, but actually opening up for a space for, uh, the curiosity or the exploration, uh, so uh, but. But one more thing, like I mean if you can share, like, uh, from the responses, like what's been the most surprising or maybe the unexpected feedback you have received so far. I mean one or two if you can share.
Speaker 2:I mean I think this isn't the most unexpected, but I would say like some of my favorite stuff to hear is just a lot of like this has been really validating and feeling good. The kind of core concept of the show is this central conflict of a lot of people are watching a lot of porn and they're like feeling really guilty about it. You know, and I've spoken with a lot of just like my friends who have been like I'm really trying to get off porn, like there's this real kind of aversion to the behavior, and so I think some of my favorite feedback is like now I just like am able to look at this a little bit differently and like see how I can engage with it in a healthy way. I feel like we've had some people say that they're it's like opening the door to have conversations with their kids about porn.
Speaker 3:Yeah, that's what sticks in my mind the most.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's like very exciting and important to do that, I think, because it is like especially, I mean gosh, there's the whole universe of any sexual kink is in your pocket at like basically any time if you have a phone. And so I think it's like very touching to think about the people who, like this is like spurred conversations, or they've like shared it with their kids to be able to listen to it.
Speaker 3:Spurred conversations, or they've like shared it with their kids to be able to listen to it and yeah, yeah, we didn't make it for, uh, like an adolescent audience intentionally, but there it.
Speaker 3:It does have the sort of porn literacy piece which is like deconstructing these ideas around porn and the messages we receive, looking at it and like this grand scheme of of our history as as like a sex culture, and also like the evolution of porn and how we got here and how watching porn now is so different from watching porn in the 90s, for example. So, like there is this educational component to it and we absolutely want younger generations to to feel empowered to make their own decisions and to feel like, if they choose to watch porn, they can enjoy it without it making them feel insecure or making them feel like they're not doing something right. Um, so to to hear parents say, oh yeah, like this, this gave me the push and the language to talk to my teenager about porn for the first time Like that's huge, that makes that's like. Yeah, it's kind of hard to compare that feeling. When you hear that You're like, okay, at least somebody's having these conversations and we're doing something to help you know.
Speaker 1:Exactly Lovely, yeah. And one more thing like um, so I was reading your bio and from there, uh, this word squirmy moment from your workshops. Um, so I mean to to uh understand better, like when, when you're unsure, like how to check in with a partner during the intimacy, so on this, what advice do you give to people who feel paralyzed by the fear of ruining the mood?
Speaker 3:This is a very good question.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I feel like a lot of that starts when it's close on, like before you're in a sexual encounter and like want them to touch in a different spot or whatever. I think like creating a culture where there is within the relationship, where there's just like this idea that feedback is a gift and that it's not a criticism and that you have this shared goal of pleasure and exploration and expansion.
Speaker 2:I I feel like, yes, like establishing that before any direct feedback just kind of creates this blanket that you're both able to go into. Yeah, I think that because it's often very stigmatized to talk about sex and we are saturated in this culture where there's so much like hyper-sexualization all over the place but we're not really having like a lot of direct education, so everyone just like feels like they should be really good at it out the gates, like there's like a lot of fronting that can happen and so so much pressure yes like you don't expect to hop into a car and drive perfectly the first time, right, like there's like an understanding that you're going to develop these things.
Speaker 2:So I think a lot of it just comes down to having kind of this like culture of like we're on the same team, this is a never-ending practice, like beginner's mindset kind of thing, and if we want to try something, like let do that together, um, because that humility really helps, yeah, yeah, I think if you're like that, that's definitely best case, as you kind of start with your clothes on by like building this sense of safety and play and feedback as a gift.
Speaker 3:And if you're in the encounter and you're like feeling kind of paralyzed, you're like I don't really love what's happening, I don't really know what to say. I don't want to make them feel bad, I don't want to ruin the moment. You know, one of the like foundations of squirm is trying to debunk this idea that talking about sex is going to ruin sex or like talking about it's going to ruin the moment. So, like that, that whole idea is like really central to what we're trying to help people with. I think it's important to know that like speaking up is okay and, on the flip side, you need to also be a good listener yourself right.
Speaker 3:Like it takes two people to be able to work with feedback. There's someone who needs to share it and there's someone who needs to be able to receive that feedback too. So that does start with like creating the safe space outside of sex. But if you're in the moment, I think, like remembering that there's nothing wrong with wanting to redirect or pivot, so like just put aside the feeling like something wrong is happening. Put aside the feeling like something wrong is happening. It's like all very natural that it's going to ebb and flow and that you might want to change course halfway through and that's totally fine.
Speaker 3:Um, I think also there's this feeling like maybe because of how you see it in movies and porn, it's a very linear experience. That sex is like you do this, then this, then this and this, and then orgasm then done, and like perfect. Every time. You know but yeah, it can. It can like amp up, it can scale back, you can fully stop and just like lay next to each other for a little bit. So I think if you're, if you're really not sure what to say and you're not into what's happening and you don't have the words to ask for exactly what you want, you can be like this feeling really good, but I just want to like kiss for a minute or just like cuddle or like you know, like let's just like scale back.
Speaker 3:I'm like feeling really sensitive. Like you can, you can kind of just pump the brakes and maybe that'll give you some time to figure out what does feel good. Instead, rather than needing to come up with like the perfect solution in that moment of a different position or like a different way you're being touched, I kind of feel like just pumping the brakes in like a sweet way can can relieve that pressure, to then like find those words again and if it's a little awkward, it's like that's okay. I think people can get more comfortable with moments of awkwardness and then recovering from it and not having it be like sex was ruined because there was a moment where someone was like I'm not sure where to put my hands. You know like I think that's like kind of just part of being a person and getting naked with another person or a few true, definitely yeah, and and in.
Speaker 1:In this context also, we often hear from from people like, yeah, I'm the, I'm the great communicator and all, but maybe somehow I'm not tuned into with my partner, so, and this kind of belief some people have. So how do you help them to bridge that gap?
Speaker 3:I'm just gonna say, kelse, uh, I think you like helped me think about being attuned to people, uh, in sex, kind of like improv, like people who are like really good at improv are really good at being attuned, because you have to read the room really well, you have to think, you have to anticipate a little bit of what's going to happen. You can't just fully be in your head. So I feel like like you brought that up to me early on and I was like man, we'd probably all be better at sex if we all took improv classes. It's not like a real answer, but it's just something I think about a lot in terms of like being attuned to others and how that translates to the bedroom, but I don't know.
Speaker 2:Yeah but yeah, like I think it comes back to that, like listening and kind of yes and spirit. You know, like I think a lot about. So one of our workshops is voicing your sexual desires and it's all about like how do you get good at saying this stuff? And I feel like 70% of the people that come in the problem is like I don't actually know what I want to voice like, and a lot of sex becomes this kind of game of chicken of like I like, I like it if you chicken of like I like it if you're into it. Like I like it if you're into it. So like now what?
Speaker 3:No, I was going to say the thing that we're into, though.
Speaker 2:Right, yeah, like what is that?
Speaker 2:I guess I feel like that from my perspective a lot of the time.
Speaker 2:Or like the partners that I've been with, I think there's this like lack of attunement a lot of the time.
Speaker 2:Or like the partners that I've been with, where I think there's this like lack of attunement a lot of it, is like a lack of self-knowledge or understanding of like what it is that they're seeking, and I don't think that that's I don't say that to pathologize it I think that that's just very, very common and one of the most foundational things that we all are able to do to improve our sex lives is to like have the fun job of doing the homework of like what turns me on, you know, like what is it that I'm going to communicate to my partner? Because I feel like that's you usually a big part of the battle. Like there is the challenge of actually getting the words out, but sometimes even harder, just to identify like what those words are wrapped around and what you want to try. So I think like, yes, having this like sense of exploration and curiosity with your own sexual landscape and then that of a partner is kind of where it all starts.
Speaker 3:Yeah, being able to really listen and go into sex without this, this like play by play, already in mind of like well, I'm going to do this and this and they're going to do this and just being able to like kind of take it one step at a time and be be checking in with the nonverbal cues as much as the verbal cues, like I think that's a really big part of it. Like, if you want to be a better listener during sex, like like listen to the sound someone's making, but also like really tune into their body. You know, like how are they moving? Like how is it? It's such a sensory experience and I think we all get in our heads so easily and think like okay, well, this has been going on for a while, so I should probably like do it this way, or is this taking too long? And and forget to actually pay attention to the real feedback we're getting in the moment. You know so, out of our heads into the physical experience of what's happening.
Speaker 1:Um, I think can can help if you're like trying to kind of be yeah, be a better sexual listener exactly so I I believe open communication between uh with the couples, or maybe in in any relationship, is very important to listen, to understand and do feel so definitely yeah yeah so, um, I know time is constrained.
Speaker 1:I really uh, I mean really want to continue with the topics so quickly. I mean, if you can, if you can share about the porn nerds which you uh, I mean it's a, it's a uh great thing, or the idea, uh, of porn nerds. So do you think that mainstream porn is failing us in terms of teaching people what healthy consensual sex looks like?
Speaker 2:Really hard-hitting question right at the end. There aren't you? Yeah, like. I think my instinct on it is that it's like very much about context. I think that a lot of like we don't necessarily like look to Hollywood or whatever the mainstream movies are with this sense that they have some kind of moral obligation to teach us like we use the fast and the furious metaphor a lot like you don't go to fast and the furious and you're like this is failing us in terms of showing us how to drive hard. You know, like.
Speaker 2:So I think I think like a big because it's a stigmatized topic and because it has become this de facto sex ed, like there are definitely elements of like how people absorb that information. That is problematic and in the same breath, it's not necessarily like porn's job to teach us how to be good lovers. I think that it's all of our jobs as a society to be able to like put that in its right place be able to enjoy this stuff as entertainment. Let's make sure that the industry is ethical and above board and that the performers are enjoying it and all that like. That's a whole other part of the conversation. But, yeah, I think that it's. I guess I don't think that it's like the industry's responsibility necessarily to teach us how to be sexual people yeah yeah, 100.
Speaker 3:I think there's this movement in the states to um like the age verification laws which requires you know proving that you're over 18 by putting in certain identifying markers, and it's like real controversial and the whole idea is to like protect kids so that you know. To like to your question like is it harmful, is it teaching us negative things and making us I don't remember exactly how you phrase the question, but like is it this harmful source or educating force? And my response to the age verification laws and this censorship around porn is like it's never going to go away. It's been part of our culture since the very beginning, like explicit imagery, erotic art, porn. It takes so many forms but it's been around since the beginning.
Speaker 3:People have such a natural curiosity to see other people have sex. It's like a really beautiful trait that we're so curious about each other and, like sex is, it's so natural to be curious about it. So, just like kelsey's saying, like the context really matters. If you think about porn as the main way people are learning about sex, then like rather than censor it, maybe we should just be better at teaching people about sex. You know, like let porn exist, let people have fun with it and be curious, but like give them the actual education they need so that it doesn't become this like a big, scary thing in our lives, so it doesn't become the thing everyone's worried about.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:You know, there's ways to counteract that without needing to condemn porn itself.
Speaker 2:condemn porn itself. Yeah, and I think it's like we'd be remiss to not mention and this is a big part of the show too but like that the packaging of this thing also changes it really dramatically Like somebody seeking a visual aid to get them off when they're horny and just like want to masturbate. Like that's kind of a different itch than when you're having sex with in a partner experience some of the time. You know, and I think like it's like it's almost impossible to like not talk about porn in the way that to have like splashier things, keywords that grab like, like a very like specific kind of brand of porn like I, I. I think like important value for us when making this is to like not minimize the fact that there are real harms that people are getting from like watching a lot of porn in this exposure like it does.
Speaker 2:There are those impacts, um exactly, exactly however, it's just like so much bigger than like the act. I think it's like it's detangling it from like our curiosity and sexuality in general, like that is not something to pathologize.
Speaker 3:There's plenty of criticisms to be made about the whole, all of it, but, yeah, it's like easy to round it up to this kind of like sex negative thing, which is what we're really trying to, yes, avoid, you know we like really wrestled with this a lot when making the show just how to not pretend that there's nothing wrong with porn because, like, there are certainly plenty of things that are stressful and and causing some harm, like depending on you know who you are and how you're consuming it and what it's, how it's impacting your life. But so it's like we don't want to fully gloss over that at all and we're also not going to pretend like it's all bad. So it's like, how do you find that middle ground? And I think one thing we landed on was like, is it a problem with porn or is it just a problem with the Internet and smartphones?
Speaker 3:with the internet and smartphones and the fact that things porn is so accessible and that it's really easy to feel like we're not happy with our habits around our phones and most of porn like 85 percent of porn of porn is watched on your phone. So it's kind of like part of this much bigger conversation about how we just interact on the internet with our digital devices and not with other humans and, like she said, trying to disentangle that the internet and smartphone piece from just the pornography component itself. Like porn, that's also Playboy, that's also audio erotica. Like porn is so much more than just what's on your smartphone. So I think that's really important for us to get across. It's just like trying to put it in its context. Remember that the like delivery mechanism can feel like more of the problem than the content itself.
Speaker 1:Exactly, I really love what you're doing at Squirm and helping people. That's most, very important. And I talk if I talk about from india perspective. So I guess you you heard about kamasutra, right? Kamasutra yeah, I mean it's the same thing like uh is the world's most oldest text and I really love, like uh, what you are doing in your platform. It is definitely helping people. Uh, in that context, about understanding as a, as a, as a guide, so uh, that that's that's really commendable.
Speaker 1:So yeah, yeah, thank you yeah so, um so, thank you so much, tess and gals uh, for being here and sharing your incredible insights and, as I mentioned, you are breaking down the walls and building deep bridges, so that's really great Well, and likewise like thank you for what you're putting out there.
Speaker 2:Yeah, these are the kind of conversations that more of us need to have. So like, right back at you kudos for what you're doing really.
Speaker 1:And for the listeners I'll definitely mention like make sure to check out Kels and Des' platform SQUIRM S-Q-U-I-R-M and their podcast Porn Nerds. You can find it wherever you listen to the podcast and, trust me, it's a series that you do not want to miss. And if this conversation has sparked something in you, an idea, a question or maybe even a squirmy moment, do not keep it to yourself. Share it with a friend or someone whom you love the most. Start a conversation and keep exploring, because, when it comes to pleasure, curiosity is always a good thing. So until next time, stay curious, stay bold and stay true to your pleasure principles. This is your host, avik, signing off. Thank you so much.
