Redefining Intimacy and Fulfillment Through Challenging Societal Norms and Embracing Authenticity - Dr. Rachel McNeely

Embark on a transformative journey with us as we explore the profound impact of societal norms on intimate relationships, featuring the insights of Dr. Rachel McNeely. As a pioneering figure in pelvic floor rehabilitation and intimacy coaching, Rachel shares her personal evolution from a sexless marriage to a life filled with authentic and fulfilling connections. We challenge the passive roles often assigned to women in the bedroom and unravel how questioning these traditional expectations can unlock a world of creativity and satisfaction. Rachel's expertise sheds light on the critical role of understanding anatomy and addressing common issues like dyspareunia to fully enhance sexual experiences.

Our candid discussion delves into moving beyond performative relationships and embracing true authenticity. Through personal stories and professional insights, we recognize the limitations imposed by heteronormative constraints and explore the potential for women to redefine their sexuality in liberating ways. Therapy and coaching emerge as powerful tools for revitalizing intimacy, focusing on present and future possibilities. By examining and challenging biases toward traditional sex roles, we advocate for greater awareness and education to ensure that everyone can access the full spectrum of pleasure available in their intimate lives. Join us for a thought-provoking conversation that promises to inspire change and promote deeper connections.

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Chapters

• 0:01 Gender Roles and Sexual Satisfaction
• 11:49 Exploring Sexuality and Intimacy

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:01

Hey everyone, welcome back to Pleasure Principles, the podcast where we unravel the complex, thrilling and sometimes taboo aspects of human intimacy, relationships and the self-discovery. I'm your host, avik, and today we are diving into an important and eye-opening conversation, like how gender roles impact the satisfaction and the creativity and what your pelvic floor has to do with it. So joining me today is the phenomenal rachel mcneely. So welcome to the show, rachel Lovely. So, rachel, before we start, I'd quickly love to introduce you to all of our listeners. Dear listeners, rachel is a doctor of physical therapy specializing in pelvic floor rehabilitation, and an ACCT, a-a-a-c, aacct trend intimacy coach. So she is a powerhouse of insight, challenging the myths around low desire and helping people reignite passion in their relationships. So her TikTok sex toy reviews have hatched up over 150,000 views and she's on a mission to end sexless marriages while helping folks stoke desire, heighten the arousal and rethink the way we approach pleasure. So, rachel, welcome to the Pleasure Principle. I'm so, so excited to have you here today.

Speaker 2: 1:49

Great. Thank you so much. I'm so excited to be here and thanks for the introduction Very thorough.

Speaker 1: 1:55

Thank you, thank you so much so, rachel, like when today we're discussing about the gender roles. So gender roles have historically shaped our expectations of the intimacy and the pleasure. So in your work, what are some of the most common ways that you see gender conditioning affecting the sexual satisfaction?

Speaker 2: 2:17

Yeah, so it might be helpful if I start a little bit with how I got into this work, which is really related to gender roles and sexuality, if that's okay.

Speaker 1: 2:30

Lovely Okay great.

Speaker 2: 2:33

So I was in school to become a physical therapist, a doctor of physical therapy. I knew that I was interested in pelvic floor practice and at the same time I was in what was clinically defined as a sexless marriage to a man. And I did not know what the clinical definition was and actually even today I couldn't tell you exactly. I think it's something like having sex fewer than three times a year and I realized that I was going to die someday and I couldn't carry on like that and I needed to do something about it. And some of the things that, as I reflect back, contributed to that really had to do with how I behaved as a woman in relationship to a man. So I think I really expected that he would initiate. I expected that I may not be as satisfied, and that was kind of just the way things went, and I also was really used to putting on what I would call almost like a performance, even if I wasn't super satisfied, because that's what I had grown up doing my whole life, from my very first sexual experiences on through my marriage.

Speaker 2: 3:38

So after I was divorced I started to look a little bit more at who I was attracted to, how I engaged in my sexual relationships and, at the same time, discovered a love for women and started to be in relationships with women.

Speaker 2: 3:55

And in my relationships with women where there weren't these clearly defined roles, I started to have a lot more satisfaction.

Speaker 2: 4:02

My sex could be a lot more creative. I wasn't always doing the same thing, because I realized I wasn't going for just the things that I had been taught all along that I thought were the things that would make me happy. And so, in summary and I'm definitely happy to get into a lot more detail about that, but in summary, that's kind of what made me realize, huh, when I was with men, I didn't know what I didn't know, and so I just kind of did the only thing I knew, and even if it didn't work super well for me, it was passable, it was fine. And then, as I started to open my own experiences of my own gender expression and with the people that I was intimate with, I started to notice, oh, when I just follow the things I enjoy and my desire because there's no gendered expectation and other people can do the same thing that the whole interaction is a lot more authentic, a lot more enjoyable, things like that understood, understood, and and also like, uh.

Speaker 1: 4:58

so I have to say like, do you think the way we are socialized, uh, influences not our desire but our creativity in the bedroom?

Speaker 2: 5:09

Yeah, I think that is true Because I think, again, if we don't know what we don't know. You know, I had a few tricks up my sleeve very few, and they were the ones that I went to over and over and I think they did have a lot to do with even if I wouldn't have said it explicitly, if I wasn't aware of it in the front of my mind but ways that I might have been more passive where someone else might have been, where a man I was with might have been more the aggressor and I don't even mean that in a violent way, I mean that just in kind of an action-oriented way, where I'm receiving the action and he's kind of driving the action. And I think on a real basic level that means that, well, what if I enjoy driving the action? Sometimes I would never know it right. What if I were driving the action?

Speaker 2: 5:53

A lot of different things would open up for both of us. That would be fun and exciting. I would never get there because I didn't have the creativity to think of myself as being kind of someone who just got to pursue any sexual desire under the sun. I really related my desires to my gendered relationship with men. Again, even if I didn't know it, and I think that's the interesting thing about socialization it's not like we're aware of how we're being socialized. When we are being socialized, we just come to accept certain things as fact. When that worldview gets kind of knocked around for whatever reason or gets disrupted, we can start to appreciate oh, maybe it isn't the way that I was just raised or all of these things that I thought were expected of me. Maybe, if I'm forced to think outside the box a little bit, there are other things that I might enjoy.

Speaker 1: 6:46

That's amazing and oh lovely. I mean, it's really fascinating. Like so often, people assume that lack of desire is an individual issue, kind of, rather than a systematic or the learned behavior. So if we are never taught to explore our pleasure beyond a rigid framework, of course we'll struggle with it for sure.

Speaker 2: 7:13

Yeah, and I actually think you're getting at something really important, and so the thing I say all the time to clients is anything we enjoy doing. You don't have to convince us to do so if I think I have low libido or I think I'm not enjoying something. Of course, some people do have an actual lack of desire and there are different interventions that can be helpful for that. But I think by and large, people, especially women, who think they have low desire actually just aren't enjoying the things that they're doing. They're not having as much fun as they could have.

Speaker 2: 7:44

And if we could start to explore what they really might like, what really might be fun for them and a lot of this does have to do with giving and receiving, which I'm happy to talk more about but if they really were getting what they wanted, they would want to have sex all the time because it would be fun. It would be something they looked forward to, not something that they dreaded or felt like another place where they had to just give of themselves and not receive what they really wanted authentically, things like that. But I also think we're not really socialized to get in touch with what we want authentically, so we really can't blame anybody. It's the sauce that we're all swimming in. But I think we're just kind of at a loss when we get into relationships between men and women, often because it's not satisfying necessarily. But we also don't necessarily have the creativity or insight to understand why it's not and where we could be digging a little bit deeper.

Speaker 1: 8:34

Exactly, very true, this idea, and also, like you have talked about the myth of low desire in women and how it's often not about lack of libido but also about lack of options that truly excite them.

Speaker 2: 8:53

So if you can share a bit on that, I mean she had a big on that, yeah, so I think, to give an example, right? So I've had a client who was only able to have an orgasm in one position with all the men that she was in her whole life until she met a man who was really attentive and who opened her eyes a little bit to spending much longer time on oral and digital stimulation, for example. And she discovered, well, if someone takes the time and shows that he is really enjoying that in such a way that she can let go a little bit, that was something she really enjoyed too and it could bring her to orgasm many times over. But the men she had been with before, and even for herself, didn't realize because they were always so focused on what a lot of us consider the main event, right?

Speaker 2: 9:46

So penis and vagina intercourse, which is not pleasurable for most women, or is not? The vagina is not the organ of pleasure for women. The clitoris is right, and we have tissue throughout our vulva related to the clitoris that's meant to help us with arousal and turn on orgasm and all of that. But she hadn't had that stimulated in that way with any of her previous partners, so she just felt like, oh well, you know, sex isn't bad, it's okay. It's, you know, kind of mediocre, but that's fine. I have an orgasm sometimes. Sometimes I don't Until again. Again, her worldview has just opened up and she realized oh no, when I have the time and I don't have to be worrying that I'm taking too long or that my partner is enjoying what he's doing or whatever, and I can really explore different kinds of touch. There's actually a lot that I enjoy.

Speaker 1: 10:32

I just never had the chance to experience it exactly, very, very truly, sana, yeah, I agree, and, and I mean, uh, it it really uh, challenges the mainstream narrative, right? So it's, it's not about fixing that desire, it's all about, um, changing the menu of, uh, what's even on the table in the first place, right? So, yeah, yeah, and also, like you have been through a post-mortem transformation, living a sexless marriage and rediscovering the passion of I mean on your own terms. So how did that journey inform your work, as a kind of whole journey as an intimacy coach.

Speaker 2: 11:23

Great, and I'm sorry the audio broke up, for just a second Would you repeat the question?

Speaker 1: 11:26

Sure, so I was just saying, like, as you've been through the personal transformation where leaving a sexless marriage, and also about rediscovering your passion on your own terms. So I mean, how did that journey inform your work as an intimacy coach?

Speaker 2: 11:46

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 11:49

So there was a point in my marriage where I realized that I was putting on an Academy Award winning performance and I wasn't necessarily having the time of my life an Academy Award winning performance and I wasn't necessarily having the time of my life. And when I realized that I was doing that one day, I just decided I'm not going to do that anymore. I'm only going to respond in a way that feels really authentically to me, or authentic to me Most of the men that I'm with. They don't have to put on any kind of performance and I don't complain, it's just fine. And so as soon as I stopped putting on that performance, I think that's really where a lot of the passion in our relationship died, and that's part of what.

Speaker 2: 12:38

So I didn't deliberately seek out relationships with people who weren't men after my marriage. It kind of just happened that way. And so when I realized this attraction to women and to folks who weren't men, I started to realize, oh, they were introducing me, they had more experience than me and they were introducing me to things that I just never would have considered. Kind of like I was even explaining for that one client, and so that's what made me realize. Huh, I think women who only ever sleep with men would really benefit from understanding, without having to sleep with women or anybody else what some of the things are that they might be missing. And I also think, again, it's not men's fault, like they're socialized to do the things they do too. I think if we helped men understand what might demonstrate their own passion and their own engagement, their own love for women and their own attraction to women, that that also could change the dynamic between men and women. And so I think I just realized how limiting straight relationships can be when you have no other experience, because, just like gender has a role to play in every aspect of our daily lives, it also has a role to play in bed. And again, we just don't know what we don't know.

Speaker 2: 13:56

And so I think in my own personal journey, it was kind of going from not knowing what I didn't know to all of a sudden realizing, oh, there is something else to know, and I'm starting to learn it and I don't. I wish that all other women who were only sleeping with men knew this too, because then I think they could be exploring their sexuality in a different way, they could be asking for different things that would really excite them. And so my mission to end sexless marriages really comes from that personal experience where I think there are a lot of reasons that it's good that I'm not married to that person anymore. But I also think, huh, how silly it was that we really got in our own way when it came to our issues sexually and there was so much we could have been doing that we just never got coached to do. And I think that's where my role as an intimacy coach comes in too, because you know, we were in couples therapy. We had been seeing a really renowned psychologist on someone who had trained with the Gottmans, who are really well-known marriage researchers and therapists and despite that we never move forward with our sex life.

Speaker 2: 14:59

And I think it's because therapy in that sense is really designed to look at the past and trauma and hurt and kind of processing that stuff so that our present is better. And I think there's a role to play for therapy. I think that's important, but I love my work because I'm not really focused on the past and processing the past. I'm focused on the present and the future and to me that's important. But I love my work because I'm not really focused on the past and processing the past. I'm focused on the present and the future, and to me that's where excitement happens, that's where resentment has no place, um, and that's where we can really reconnect again that's awesome.

Speaker 1: 15:31

yeah, that's lovely, and and and um, like you, are also a pelvic floor therapist and a lot of people don't realize, like, how the pelvic floor plays into the sexual function and the satisfactions as well. So what are some of the most common issues, like you see in your patients?

Speaker 2: 15:58

Yeah, you see in your patients. Yeah, so probably the most common pelvic floor issue I see as it relates to sex is what's called dyspareunia. It basically just means pain with sex, and this could be vaginal pain. This could be external pain for women. Sometimes men have pain with getting erections. I don't treat men very often when it comes to pelvic floor physical therapy, but that's often what they're dealing with, and I primarily, am treating pelvic pain in women with sex and, of course, if we're saying anything you want to do, you shouldn't have to convince us to do. Well, it's going to be really hard for me to want to do something that I know is going to cause pain for me, and so, at a basic level, I definitely need to address that pain piece so that I'm able to enjoy all of the other things.

Speaker 1: 16:45

Okay, I have to say here that that's wild, because we don't talk about this nearly enough, and I feel like there's a whole world of pleasure that people might be missing out on simply because they don't know about their own anatomy. What do you say?

Speaker 2: 17:05

Oh gosh, I totally agree with that and I think this really has to do with a bias toward penis and vagina sex versus clitoral stimulation for women. I see this all the time. So my pelvic floor patients, I always ask them on intake, as far as they know, are they able to have an orgasm alone or with a partner? And many women will say to me, oh well, yeah, I can, but not vaginal. And I think that's so funny because, again, the vagina, the canal of your vagina, does not really have a lot of nerve endings that are meant for sexual arousal and stimulation. So I think there's this idea and I think this is very heteronormative and gendered as well.

Speaker 1: 17:50

The idea is, oh well, sure, that's true, yeah, so also kind of there's a lot of pressure in the long-term relationships to keep the spark alive. That's, I guess it's mostly common nowadays. So what are some of the biggest myths about long-term sexual fulfillment?

Speaker 2: 18:19

Yeah. So I think we really are biased against scheduling sex, which is funny because there are really two kinds of desire. There's responsive desire and spontaneous desire. Spontaneous desire is the kind that we have early in relationships that says, oh, I can't explain it, I just want to have sex with this person, I can't explain it, I just want to have sex with this person. That fades for everybody over time and we really then have to rely on responsive desire, meaning I'm going to have to do something else first, even something physical first, as my body gets warmed up to being able to have sex. So scheduling sex isn't a bad thing. It's actually a necessity for anyone who's in relationship for a long time or at least saying, hey, I might not feel in the mood right this second, but why don't we make out a little bit and let's see what happens? Or why don't we do something else kind of to initiate, even if I'm not feeling it? And the feeling will come, but it's not necessarily going to be there the moment I sit down to have sex.

Speaker 1: 19:32

Yeah, yeah, exactly, oh great. And also like, like I mean it's very refreshing to hear that the idea that excitement has to look a certain way be kind of so limiting and and and it. It makes it makes sense that we did feel stuck if we got the wrong, playbook right right.

Speaker 2: 19:49

Or we think, oh, I'm not attracted to my partner anymore. I guess right, and it's like no. It definitely makes sense that you think you're not attracted to your partner, because then maybe you see someone out and about that you think is attractive and you feel like sexually attracted to that person. It would be easy to think in your mind like, oh, I guess I'm not attracted to my partner anymore because look how I feel about this other person. But it's like no, actually that's just how desire works. We always are going to be interested in the novel, right? The novel only lasts so long. So if you want a long-term relationship, you are going to have to get used to responsive desire. And of course we can talk about how to create novelty in long-term relationships. That can be fun too, but it's not going to be the only thing, that's for sure.

Speaker 1: 20:30

Exactly, exactly, lovely, and your mission is to end sexist marriage. And so what's the first thing that you would want someone to know if they are currently in a relationship where intimacy feels?

Speaker 2: 20:44

lost. I think if you are in a situation where you feel like all intimacy is lost, the first thing or you haven't had sex in a while, the first thing is to figure out a way to enjoy any kind of physical pleasure together, even if it's non-sexual. So if you haven't had sex in a while, jumping into taking your clothes off or doing something that vulnerable can feel like a pretty big hurdle. And I think it can start with enjoying a meal together and enjoying the taste of the meal, not being distracted on phones while you do something pleasurable like that together, going for a walk and really appreciating the breeze on your face and doing more of those types of things. So you even start to get used to being in the same physical sensation realm with somebody else.

Speaker 2: 21:34

And then I think, once you are a little bit more present to what sensation in my body generally can I connect to physical sensation in the present, then you can start to think a little bit more about how that looks with a partner and I think, getting over the hump from okay, I'm now more used to physical sensation in my body, going from that to and now we're going to leap, and so I do think there are a lot of other things and that's where a coach or someone else can be handy to help kind of get over that hump. But I think it does start with. Can I be physically present in my body and present to sensation? Because if I can't, no amount of somebody else touching me is ever going to do anything for me. I can't even become aware of it in a pleasurable way become aware of it in a pleasurable way.

Speaker 1: 22:20

Wow, that's amazing. That's really, really amazing. And yeah, and that's such an important takeaway I mean it's not about assigning the blame or kind of feeling broken. It's all about reimagining, like, what pleasure can be and truly wanting to explore it. So that's really, really great, thank you. Thank you so much, absolutely.

Speaker 2: 22:40

Nothing is less sexy than Blaine.

Speaker 1: 22:42

Yeah, exactly, exactly, yeah, awesome, yeah, rachel, like this has been such and such a powerful and eye-opening conversation, and I love how you are helping people rethink the intimacy, desire and the creative potential of the sex.

Speaker 2: 23:04

Awesome, thank you.

Speaker 1: 23:05

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 23:06

And thank you for giving a platform to so many people, because I think there's so much information that has to get out there and we need to be able to talk about it just candidly, if we all go through it.

Speaker 1: 23:13

Exactly, and I think so many of us have been taught to view sex through a lens of obligation or kind of function rather than as an experience that should actually bring us joy, curiosity and self-expression. So that's really great and, for everyone who's listening, if today's conversation has resonated with you and if you are feeling stuck or uninspired or just curious about how you could be experiencing more pleasure, then Rachel is the person to reach out to and you can find her on the instagram, on the social media. I'll put all the links into the show notes so that you can easily reach out to her, and I highly highly recommend checking out her work.

Speaker 2: 23:54

and, yeah, and then thank you so much yeah, welcome.

Speaker 1: 23:59

So, and then, as always, like dear listeners, like, if you love this episode, share it with a friend, family or someone whom you love the most, because this will definitely change the way we think about the word sex. It's really, really important. So leave us a review and keep exploring the pleasure means to you, and until next time, stay curious, stay open and stay tuned on. So thank you so much.

Speaker 2: 24:30

Thank you so much. Have a good one, bye.